O'Reilly Community

It's an awesome concept! I can't wait to read this book.

I'm a current subscriber to Safari Books Online. Do you, or does anyone, know why
this book isn't showing up yet in Safari?

Thanks!
Nathan

Great question Nathan. We decided not to offer this book on Safari for now. The final release of Essential Silverlight 2 will look like all of our other books and be on Safari.

However, this project is evolving and this may be a topic we need to look at again.

Wow, just saw an advertisement in the Redmond magazine about this Up-to-Date program.
Here are my thoughts...

Excellent idea! This idea will become successful and be a hit if the books are updated on a regular basis, this includes code fixes, image updates, code updates, and any other errors that may get outdated or discovered.

I hope to see more books available soon, looks like only Silverlight 2 is available now??

Look forward to more!

I love the concept.

It drives me nuts that any Internet technology reference is out of date within a year of when you buy it, but, I can't bring myself to buy the latest edition to get the extra 5-10% of new material. There are always Internet references but I really don't like reading anything longer then a page or two on the Internet, maybe I'm weird but I like my books on paper. This solves the problem nicely and there are a handful of O'Reilly books I'd re-buy right now if I could get them in this format.

I was already looking for a Silverlight reference and am definitely ordering it this way and would like to know what other titles you plan to offer in the next 6 months or there about? I'd hate to buy a book from some other publisher only to find out that the same topic is coming out as an Up-to-date book from O'Reilly. Some topics I'd like to see in this format would be anything .Net since it's changing so fast (especially the 3.5 technologies like WPF, WCF and WF), XNA, and any Internet technology reference books (the Dynamic HTML Definitive Reference by Danny Goodman would be an excellent choice, mine is showing a lot of wear).

I'm looking forward to receiving the Silverlight book and hearing what titles are coming down the road.

Jay and SuperTal-
I'm glad you like the idea! We are really excited about it here too. Stay tuned for more announced titles--you hit the nail on the head, we are targeting technologies that are quickly evolving.

Thank you,
Laurel

I really like our new book. Not only does it look unique, but the idea is fresh and exciting. I'm looking forward to other 'Up-to-Date' subjects we might choose to cover.

I like the concept as long as it keeps up-to-date.

One problem I have is the binder.
The book doesn't stay open when laying in front of me and adding new pages will be impossible as the format is not A4 and the tripple hole binding is not standard either.

Any suggestions?

Hello-
To address your first concern, the first update is coming out next week. Also, we are looking at other options to have the book lay flat--we recognize that's a pretty important feature.

As far as the new pages go, we are formatting the update PDFs to be A4 size too, so all you'll have to do is print them out, trim along the lines indicated, and then hole punch where indicated. Or there's the option of purchasing the update already trimmed and punched.

The more recent versions of the book have blank pages included that you can print your updates on.

Hope this helps!
Laurel

Overall, I like the concept. If there's a way you could issue smaller updates every 2-3 weeks, that would be even better.

I'm not sure whether I like it better than the "Rough Cuts" approach, where you release a new PDF every so often, then release the print copy once you have a final release.

The biggest potential win of the Up-To-Date approach would be if you kept issuing releases after publication, sort of like software. Go through a beta cycle, release version 1.0 follow up with updates like 1.1 and 1.2, then eventually offer a reduced-price upgrade to version 2.0. The fact that you issue it in a changeable binder makes this technically feasible, and it is a good solution to the perennial problem of obsolescence in technical books.

In fact, if books on rapidly changing technical subjects were updated on an ongoing basis, I would be more than happy to pay a subscription fee if it were necessary to keep them up to date.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Hope this helps give you some ideas.

The idea is great. I hope PDF updates will be with full colors. Silverlight is a lot about GUI. Full colors will be great.

I've got the book and what's killing me is the binding. I know with a lot of books it can be a pain to code while reading from them, but with this book it is impossible. Usually I can get a book to remain pretty flat with some working, but you can't with the book's binder format. Already once I had the book come apart on me. I need a book that can open fully, you can barely have the book open at a 100 degree angle.

I was really down with the concept of Up-to-date, but there needs to be some work on the physical construction of future versions.

Hello-
Thank you for your feedback. We are keeping a close eye on what we can improve for future versions and having a lay-flat binding is a critical issue.

Thank you,
Laurel

Will all of us who decided to be one of the first to own this new type of book be able to get the new binder for free for this book once it is released? If so, how will be know when it is avialable and how to get the free replacement binding. I agree that this is one of the biggest downsides of this book since it is a developers book and you need to be able to follow the examples while trying them on your computer.

Also, when do they think a lay-flat binder will be available for this book?

This post has been edited by smehaffie: May 22 2008, 11:16 PM

Hello-
Well, this book is what it is. For future books we are looking at different types of binders.

I know it's hard to have the binder lay flat--but I'm looking forward to seeing what ideas people come up with--I use binder clips.

Thank you,
Laurel

So when you said "We are keeping a close eye on what we can improve for future versions and having a lay-flat binding is a critical issue" you mean future release of books in this series, not future releases of this book. That is fine and if this binder is what we get and there will not be an option to get a better binder for it, then that is what everyone will have to make due with. The binder is one of the reason I am really tempted to return the this book. Having to come up with an alternative binder myself or through kinkos is not a valid suggestion and just cost me more money.

Hi smehaffie-
I am sorry the binder is not working out You are correct, for other titles in the year we are trying to make improvements.

We're working hard to come up with other binder options and ideas. We face a number of challenges, including shelf space at the bookstore (which is why we couldn't just have a 8.5x11 binder) and making sure the binding doesn't crack when shipped.

If this book were made the same size (7x9) but had a plain ol' three ring binder, that would solve the problem of the lay flat spine, right? It's on the brainstorming list.

Also, this book will be printed in our regular paperback style after the final release of Silverlight 2, so at least that's something to look forward to (I hope ).

Thank you again,
Laurel

Hi,
I'm another Laurel; I am in marketing but am working on the binder issue. We are acutely aware of the desire for lay-flat binding...and I'm meeting with our suppliers again next week. I'm exploring flexible pin options as well as more traditional ring binders, maybe with a D ring or something. Any suggestions you have are much, much appreciated.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and comments with us; everything we do is based on the needs of our customers.

Laurel A

I just bought your Silverlight 2 book. The main reason that I went searching for books was that the videos that Microsoft have on line have a lot to be desired. One spent a great deal of time discussing how not to do something and then completely glossed over the proper way to do it. This is completely aggravating.

Okay, you want to know what I think of the Up-to-date concept.

I do like the concept. It gives a way of providing fixes to any mistakes in a part-of-book manner. It also gives a way for new lessons to be added, new techniques to be covered and a place for me to add notes. I don't have to mark up the book when these fixes or lessons are provided. It also gives a different type of binding...

Ah, now there's the rub.

Though the binder looks cool from a distance I've already discarded it. Why?

1. It is very annoying while holding it in my hand. The hard edge of the plastic is cutting grooves in my fingers during a long read.
2. I can't put the book down and expect it to stay open while working with the lessons on the computer. It wants to close when I take my hands off it.
3. If I work the indentation line on the front and back section of the plastic the book won't stay closed, the cover sticks up in the air will cause grief when attempting to put it in my book shelf.
4. Because all materials eventually break after being bent back and forth I wonder how long until this binder tears itself into several pieces.

A 3-ring binder would be much more suited to a book such as this. Therefore I have questions.

1. Do you have any 3-ring binders that are the proper size for this books papers and the holes punched in them?
2. Is the size of the paper and the spacing of the holes made to fit any 3-ring binders that are available at office supply stores?

I have yet to read even one line of the book. I've hit the binder problem immediately and decided to post this for your review and to learn if there are proper binders available.

I know that a more suitable binder would add to the price of the book; however it would be nice if one is available from you and/or you’ve made the paper size and hole punch spacing proper for one that is currently available elsewhere.

I thank you for considering my suggestions.

Laurel

If everything you do is based on the needs of your customers then I would expect you to make available a 3-ring binder with the proper cover or cover inserts for this book. I would not mind paying for this binder however I think a consideration should be that shipping is waved.

We, the customer (you're customers), feel that an issue such as this effectively makes this book useless. In a previous post I've stated that I've put the binder aside and now have a stack of papers that is vulnerable to the damages and page losses any stack of papers are affected by.

This makes my purchase funds virtually wasted and seriously tempts me to return the book.

Another thing that you could provide for all of us who have purchased this book is a pdf download of the book on standard size paper. When I say standard I mean the kind of paper that is found in any office without having to purchase another ream of customized paper. I also mean a size that will fit into a 3-ring binder that is already in stock (either in the companies supply room or at the local office supply store. In my experience the most common paper and binder size is 8.5 x 11.

Laurel Ruma stated that any resolutions to this binder issue will be available for future books and inferred that no consideration is going to be given to current customers only alienates O'Reillys current customers.

This is not a good way to keep selling books in my opinion. I've italicized current in this post because an unacceptable resolution would seriously impair your list of current customers. If you don't believe me then just give it a try.

He (she?) also stated that once the final release of Silverlight 2 is out this book would be issued in standard binding. Another consideration that you could give your current customers would be a seriously discounted price for this book.

Afterall, we current customers are stuck with a less than desireable version of it.

Your companies reply to these suggestions will be most interesting and would make a rather large impression on my desire to purchase more books from it.